The phrase is often used in debate among Western nuclear weapons experts about the futility of planning for nuclear war due to the inevitably apocalyptic nature of the outcome. As General Lew Allen, the US Air Force Chief of Staff from 1978-1982, testified when asked about “deterrence” and waging a nuclear war if deterrence fails stated: “The difficulty, I think, comes in trying to put a precise term on a concept which is measured in a number of different ways… I think in many cases the description we attempt is largely a theological one. That is, we are arguing a little bit about how many angels can dance on the head of a pin. It is an interesting point and an important discussion, but it tends to obscure reality.”